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Page 33 |
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II - 132 1 Q.
But is there work or other activities? 2 A.
Yes, work or play. 3 Q.
Every afternoon are there either work or sports roughly 4 in the 2:30 to five o'clock range? 5 A.
Yes. 6 Q.
Now, Palm Lane, I guess, is that period pretty regular 7 or does the weather ever interfere? 8 A.
Well, in the afternoons in the summertime certainly we 9 get a good shower. 10 Q.
Now, of what importance to Palm Lane in the performance 11 of its ministry is this roughly 2:30
to five o'clock, and 12 what you do on Saturday afternoon? How do the tasks, the 13 fixing, the painting the fence, that's
true, isn't it? 14 A.
Yes, sir. 15 Q.
Painting the fence, how do those tasks and job fit in 16 the performance of the ministry of
Palm Lane? 17 A.
Well, speaking from personal experience, and many years 18 ago working with Brother Wills,
Brother Wills had an academy 19 in Mississippi I was a part of. And he taught me many things 20 just watching him work and him being
sure that I did. And 21 then, you know, just having the
opportunity to carry that 22 same type of thing on to the students. It's very important 23 for them to see us work and for us to
be working there with 24 them.
And for us to show, you know, enough concern that 25 we're not only just going to give them
a task and let them
II - 133 1 work around it, but continually come
back to them and say, 2 you know, okay, this is how you do
this, you know how to do 3 this, and help them. You know, closely supervise work, 4 that's important. 5 Q.
You heard Jordan Blair say that among other things, 6 writing lines, that one of the things
he learned is how to 7 weld and use a sander, right? 8 A.
Yes, sir. 9 Q.
Are those the kinds of skills that kids pick up as a 10 part of this work play time? 11 A.
Yes, sir, that's true. 12 Q.
We don't give them or pretend to give them a vocational 13 certificate in welding? 14 A.
No, sir. 15 Q.
Or belt sanding or anything else? 16 A.
No, sir. 17 Q.
But they do get credit for that, do they not, by 18 getting credits for physical
education? 19 A.
Yes, sir. 20 Q.
If you look on the screen from page 65 of the Palm Lane 21 handbook, they get two hours worth of
credit for physical 22 education; is that correct? 23 A.
Yes, sir. 24 Q.
Does that credit include all these things that are done 25 in the afternoon or on Saturday?
II - 134 1 A.
Yes, sir. 2 Q.
Now, let's just talk about a couple of these.
There 3 are some kind of fences down at Palm
Lane, right? 4 A.
Yes, sir. 5 Q.
And they need to be painted from time to time? 6 A.
Yes, sir. 7 Q.
Do the students do that? 8 A.
Yes, sir, they do. 9 Q.
Do the staff do that along with them? 10 A.
Yes, sir. 11 Q.
Does that fence -- do you sell any of that fence or put 12 it in interstate commerce or anything? 13 A.
No, actually the fence that was painted was a metal 14 pipe fence that was there when we came
on the property. And 15 the property needed some work when we
came. And we just 16 improved the looks of the place. Instead of having a rusty 17 fence, we wire brushed it and primed
it and painted it with 18 white Rustoleum paint just to improve
the looks of the place. 19 And it's not finished yet by the way. 20 Q.
Do kids -- in addition to this work when children don't 21 follow the rules, is there a plan, a
program of protective 22 activities undertaken? 23 A.
Nothing written. When you say a plan,
nothing written 24 in stone. Nothing -- we try to work with the students as 25 individuals.
II - 135 1 Q.
How do you correct it? 2 A.
Let's get up and do this. 3 Q.
So verbals first? 4 A.
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. If they were to refuse to work, 5 which I don't recall personally
myself, I don't recall any 6 student ever just throwing his tools
down and refusing to 7 work with me or with anyone else. As long as they were, you 8 know, as long as everybody was in
there doing it. 9 Q.
Well, does work sometimes become corrective? 10 A.
Yes, sir. 11 Q.
All right. First verbal correction and
encouragement, 12 correct? 13 A.
Yes, sir. 14 Q.
What's writing lines? 15 A.
Writing lines, most of the time, you know, we try to 16 make a subject of the line match
whatever trouble they've 17 been having. 18 Q.
So if there is difficulty -- explain to the jury what 19 happens when you have to write a line. Somebody messes up. 20 A.
Let's say they are having, you know, a continual 21 problem keeping their area clean and
we're having to 22 constantly work with them about
keeping their area clean. 23 You know, we may give them a line
saying something, you know, 24 while at Palm Lane I will do my utmost
to keep my personal 25 area clean. And, you know, something like that maybe 250
II - 136 1 times.
And we give them three days to do that. If
they 2 don't have that done in three days,
the lines are doubled. 3
And what this does, it infringes on their free time. 4 So while others are being able to
enjoy play time and free 5 time, you know, they are not able to
do that. And, you 6 know -- 7 Q.
Brother O'Brient, do these children understand that 8 every action has an equal and opposite
reaction? 9 A.
We do everything we can to help them understand that, 10 yes. 11 Q.
Then do you try to teach them that actions have 12 consequences? 13 A.
Yes, sir. 14 Q.
And is that both good and bad consequences? 15 A.
Right, yes, sir, both merit and demerits. 16 Q.
And does work sometimes assigned as evidence of the 17 need for corrective action give people
the opportunity to 18 think about what they've done? 19 A.
Yes. 20 Q.
Now, sir, does Palm Lane have any product other than 21 the young people that it tries to lead
to Christ and restore 22 to society? 23 A.
No, sir, we don't produce anything. 24 Q.
You buy and sell cattle? 25 A.
No, sir.
II - 137 1 Q.
You buy and sell horses? 2 A.
No, sir. 3 Q.
Provide irrigation? 4 A.
No, sir. 5 Q.
Did you ever dig a pond? 6 A.
Personally, no, sir. 7 Q.
Did you ever have a pond dug down in Palm Lane? 8 A.
I never gave the direction to dig a pond. The
boys 9 were out close to their campground,
which is -- 10 Q.
Explain the campground. 11 A.
The campground is a place where they put up a tent and 12 sometimes on the weekend when the
weather was right we let 13 them go out and sleep over night in a
tent and, you know, 14 build them a fire and have, you know,
a weanie roast and 15 sleep out. And my understanding of it, of course, this is 16 hearsay, but my understanding is -- 17 Q.
If it's hearsay, don't tell it. 18 A.
Okay. But the pond was being dug more
for the 19 entertainment of the boys than is it
for anything else. 20
MR. STILLEY: Objection, I move to
strike on the 21 grounds no personal knowledge. 22 A.
I knew that the pond was being dug. I'm
sorry. 23
THE COURT: Overruled. 24 BY MR. OLIVER: 25 Q.
Now, sir, just real briefly, Mr. O'Brient, in the
II - 138 1 absence of the work in the afternoon,
could Palm Lane 2 adequately perform its mission as
you've described to save 3 these children? 4 A.
Not on a consistent basis, no, sir. 5 Q.
Is the work as much a part of the mission as the 6 education? 7 A.
Yes. 8 Q.
Is it as much a part of the overall mission of trying 9 to lead these children to Christ
through example and exposure 10 to the Holy Spirit? 11 A.
To show them as far as the spiritual part of it, 12 whether they believe, trying for
whatsoever you do is all for 13 the glory of God, that's a Christian
lifestyle. And to show 14 them an example of a Christian
lifestyle, which is a 15 desirable thing, but certainly having
Jesus Christ as your 16 savior, giving your life to God, that
is something they 17 should desire. 18 Q.
And if they don't accept Christ, what value does the 19 morning education and the afternoon
education have to them? 20 A.
They have, you know, if they don't accept Christ, the 21 second part of our mission does come
in. And they do have a 22 good opportunity for college credit
diploma. And if they are 23 able to attain that, a good solid
foundational education, and 24 hopefully at least knowing how to work
and when to work. 25 Q.
Are these skills these kids have when you get them?
II - 139 1 A.
Very rarely. We have had a few, but
very rarely. They 2 would be the exception, not the rule. 3 Q.
Are these the skills you're trying to impart -- 4 A.
Most definitely. 5 Q.
-- when they go back into real life? 6 A.
Most definitely. 7
MR. OLIVER: Thank you. You may inquire. 8
CROSS-EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. STILLEY: 10 Q.
So you're the person that typed up the schedule for 11 Palm Lane, correct? 12 A.
Would you show me that schedule again, please. 13 Q.
Certainly. 14 A.
No, sir, I did not type this. I did
not. 15 Q.
You had it typed up, correct? 16 A.
No, sir, I did not have it typed up. 17 Q.
How did you come in possession of this schedule? 18 A.
I really don't believe I possessed a copy of this 19 schedule. 20 Q.
Did you not testify that you sent a copy to your 21 attorney? 22 A.
No, sir. 23 Q.
You didn't? 24 A.
I did not testify that I sent this -- a copy of this 25 particular schedule to the attorney, no, sir |
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