Part 38

1 students that come from outside the state of Missouri from

2 Palm Lane -- for Mountain Park?

3 A. To give you percentages, we're not that scientific.

4 Could I say the majority of our students come from outside

5 the state of Missouri, yes, sir, they do.

6 Q. Is it fair to say that at least 80 percent of them come

7 from outside the state?

8 A. That's probably a fair statement, sure.

9 Q. And is the same true for Palm Lane in Florida?

10 A. I'm not involved with their enrollment.

11 Q. Now, you noted on one of these documents that you put

12 down, refer to others, no money.

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Was that simply because the Blair family couldn't

15 afford the tuition at that point in time?

16 A. At that point in time they could not afford the

17 tuition, yes, sir.

18 Q. Does Mountain Park ever take students kind of on a

19 scholarship basis where their parents don't have to pay?

20 A. We have provided amounts of scholarship in times past,

21 yes, sir, we have.

22 Q. Any particular reason that the Blair family wouldn't

23 qualify?

24 A. I don't know of a particular reason or the

25 circumstances at the time, no, sir.

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1 Q. Isn't it true that -- scratch that question.

2 MR. STILLEY: Your Honor, could I have just a moment

3 with my client? Thank you. Pass the witness.

4 THE COURT: Very well. You ready for your next

5 witness?

6 MR. BRIGGS: We are. We have nothing further of

7 Pastor Gerhardt. Thank you, sir.

8 MR. OLIVER: Your Honor, we have no further

9 witnesses on the subject matter that's near and dear to your

10 heart. We would renew our suggestions previously made.

11 THE COURT: Okay.

12 MR. OLIVER: We do have another witness on the

13 battery issue, but not on the Fair Labor Standards Act.

14 THE COURT: Do you have any rebuttal on the Fair

15 Labor Standards?

16 MR. STILLEY: Judge, if it please the Court, what

17 I'd like to do is get the defense case closed and then we can

18 address that at that point in time.

19 THE COURT: I understand what you would like to do,

20 but, see, I'm the one with the robe on.

21 MR. STILLEY: And I respect that highly, Judge, I

22 certainly do.

23 THE COURT: Good. And I keep telling you during the

24 recess what I want to do. So I want to know, do you have any

25 rebuttal evidence on the testimony on this Fair Labor

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1 Standards Act issue?

2 MR. STILLEY: Am I going to be compelled to put on

3 their rebuttal case before they are complete with their case

4 in chief?

5 THE COURT: In terms of Fair Labor Standards Act,

6 they said they have completed. We discussed this and you

7 said you were agreeable to it. I guess you're changing your

8 mind. I told you we would look at doing this this way. You

9 said you were agreeable to it. They said they completed

10 theirs, I said do you have anything else on that issue?

11 MR. STILLEY: Judge, I didn't hear them say we rest

12 our case with respect to the issue.

13 THE COURT: Please. I'm not talking about that.

14 Are you listening?

15 MR. STILLEY: Judge, I'm listening very carefully.

16 THE COURT: Fine. Listen again. They said they

17 have completed their evidence on the Fair Labor Standards Act

18 issue. I said do you have any further evidence or rebuttal

19 evidence on that issue? I'm not going to allow them to put

20 any more evidence on. They said they've rested on it. I'm

21 not going to allow them to put on any evidence. We discussed

22 it this during recess and I said do you have any other

23 evidence you want to put on on that issue.

24 MR. STILLEY: Yes, Your Honor, I do.

25 THE COURT: Fine. Let's put it on.

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1 MR. STILLEY: Let me see if I make sure I understand

2 the rules.

3 THE COURT: Well, I asked you, let's put it on.

4 MR. STILLEY: Let me understand so I don't violate

5 the rules. I'm not trying to violate the rules, Judge. I

6 want to know when I put on this witness, am I limited to if

7 there's something that relates both to the fair labor and the

8 battery?

9 THE COURT: You can call that witness later. You

10 can call them back again on whatever other issues you have.

11 Right now we want to deal with the Fair Labor -- I want to

12 deal with the Fair Labor Standards Act issue. If there's

13 something on another issue, then you can call the witness

14 back again.

15 MR. STILLEY: Judge, there's overlap. I'm not sure

16 that I can sort the two out.

17 THE COURT: There is -- it's all overlap.

18 MR. STILLEY: Well, now in the subsequent rebuttal

19 am I going to be limited to only the battery and only the

20 FLSA?

21 THE COURT: Yes. We're going to conclude that.

22 That's what we are doing. They will not be allowed to put on

23 any other evidence. I just told you that. Now, let's listen

24 to this again. They said they have completed their Fair

25 Labor Standards Act evidence. I want to know if you have any

II - 185

1 other, you can put that on now. And then they are completed.

2 Then you can complete whatever you have on that issue.

3 MR. STILLEY: If they don't mind me putting on

4 evidence that relates to the Fair Labor Standards Act even

5 though it may have some crossover effect into the battery

6 claim, I don't mind putting my witness on.

7 THE COURT: Well, if there is just connection there

8 that overlaps, fine. Otherwise you'll be given an

9 opportunity to put the other evidence on separately.

10 MR. STILLEY: Okay. I do want to reserve my

11 objection because I feel like their case in chief should be

12 completed before I have to start. But subject to what the

13 Court has just said, I will call a witness for rebuttal. You

14 ready to start?

15 THE COURT: We're ready to go. Call the witness.

16 MR. STILLEY: Ray Palmer.

17 MR. OLIVER: Your Honor, the original objection to

18 the witness as not being listed in interrogatory answers

19 No. 35 and No. 36. No. 37 of the Palm Lane answers not being

20 listed. I just don't want to lose it.

21 THE COURT: Come on.

22 MR. OLIVER: I didn't want to lose it. That's all.

23 THE COURT: I understand.

24 (The following proceedings were held at the bench

25 and outside the hearing of the jury:)

II - 186

1 THE COURT: Now, what's the story on this witness?

2 MR. OLIVER: Ray Palmer is a former student, Your

3 Honor, who was not listed in Rule 26(a) disclosures.

4 THE COURT: Was he just recently --

5 MR. OLIVER: In the pretrial and only in the

6 pretrial. His name -- Palm Lane specifically asked in

7 Interrogatories 34, 35, and 36 of the name, address, and

8 phone number of people who had knowledge about things

9 relating to the business.

10 THE COURT: I've ruled on this. I've excluded that

11 witness.

12 MR. STILLEY: Wait a minute. This is rebuttal. And

13 rebuttal is different than the case in chief. I didn't try

14 to put him on in the case in chief.

15 THE COURT: Tell me what he's going to rebut then.

16 MR. STILLEY: Let me tell you what he's going to

17 testify to if he's allowed to testify.

18 THE COURT: Well, fine. If he's rebuttal, you say

19 he's rebuttal.

20 MR. STILLEY: He's rebuttal.

21 THE COURT: Don't tell me what he's going to testify

22 to, tell me what he's going to rebut.

23 MR. STILLEY: He's going to rebut the assertion that

24 students are not put on extended forced labor, corrective

25 labor or whatever else you want to put it.

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1 MR. OLIVER: That's an issue he raised, not an issue

2 we raised. He can't ask a question to set up a situation for

3 him to rebut. He asked the question, we didn't.

4 THE COURT: Let's stay calm. What do you have to

5 say? It seems to me, that seems to be my recollection that

6 you raised the issue. Go ahead.

7 MR. STILLEY: I didn't raise -- Judge, here's what

8 they did. They said we just do a little bit, they might have

9 to do just a little bit of work. This boy worked for seven

10 months and they made him haul wood for seven months. And he

11 still wouldn't have gotten off of it except his grandpa found

12 out about it and he became so desperate that his desire to

13 communicate overwhelming fear.

14 THE COURT: Fine, fine, fine. I don't want to hear

15 about, you know, that the grandfather got mad, all this old

16 stuff you're talking about. See, you want to throw in

17 everything but the kitchen sink. Now, since he's rebuttal,

18 you can have him testify because Bo Gerhardt did say

19 something about they didn't -- it was never six months, it

20 may have been a couple months or something like that,

21 whatever he said. But you bring him on, ask him who he is,

22 what his background is in terms of having knowledge, and you

23 get to this extended punishment or discipline detail and

24 that's it, okay.

25 MR. STILLEY: Judge, I want to make a record on

II - 188

1 this.

2 THE COURT: You do that. You make a record later on

3 on something else. Now, you told me -- see, you asked for

4 rebuttal. You're like, give me an inch, you know, and then

5 give me a mile. You told me you had a rebuttal witness. I'm

6 giving you that. Now you're not happy. What do you want me

7 to do? As they say, please, what do you want? Forget you.

8 You bring him on with that, and we'll deal with the other

9 later.

10 (The following proceedings continued within the

11 hearing of the jury:)

12 RAY PALMER,

13 Having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as

14 follows:

15 DIRECT EXAMINATION

16 BY MR. STILLEY:

17 Q. Please state your name for the record.

18 A. Ray Palmer.

19 Q. And where do you live?

20 A. Schertz, Texas, S-c-h-e-r-t-z.

21 Q. And what large town is that near?

22 A. San Antonio.

23 Q. And how old are you?

24 A. Seventeen.

25 Q. And who do you live with?

II - 189

1 A. My grandpa.

2 Q. And is that because it's -- your parents are not

3 available to take care of you?

4 A. Yeah, they are my guardian.

5 Q. And tell us about your education before -- scratch

6 that. Were you at a place called Mountain Park Boarding

7 Academy for a period of time?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. And what was your starting date and stopping date?

10 A. I wasn't really in school that much. I mean, I was

11 like working. I wasn't really in school.

12 Q. I understand. I just want to know the date of your

13 arrival at Mountain Park and the date of your departure from

14 Mountain Park, just those two dates.

15 A. December 7th, and I left on August 15th of 2003. And I

16 was there --

17 Q. And can you tell us about your educational background

18 before you went to Mountain Park?

19 MR. OLIVER: Your Honor, what does this have to do

20 with?

21 MR. STILLEY: I just want to let the jury know what

22 kind of individual that they are getting testimony from.

23 THE COURT: Briefly.

24 MR. STILLEY: Briefly.

25 THE COURT: Right. Go ahead.

II - 190

1 BY MR. STILLEY:

2 Q. Can you tell us about what grade you were in and what

3 school you were in before you went to Mountain Park?

4 A. I was in 11th grade, and I went to Samuel Clemons High

5 School.

6 Q. And what kind of grades did you have?

7 A. As and Bs.

8 Q. And after you got out of Mountain Park, have you been

9 in school?

10 A. Yeah, I'm in school right now.

11 Q. And where are you going to school at?

12 A. Samuel Clemons High School.

13 Q. What kind of grades are you making now?

14 A. Cs and Bs.

15 Q. Okay. When you got to Mountain Park, what kind of

16 activities were you put to doing?

17 A. I was in like second grade PACE work and I was -- and

18 they said I was supposed to be in -- I was in ninth grade,

19 and I was supposed to be in 11th.

20 Q. And did you do PACE work?

21 A. Not really. I wasn't really in school the whole time I

22 was there. I was either standing in the corner on the wall

23 or I was stacking wood.

24 Q. Okay. And how many hours a day did you work stacking

25 wood?